Tacitus

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  • #13199
    Angela Lawton
    Participant

    I have noted that in other posts Tacitus has been quoted in conjunction with the existence and actions of Boudicca but what I find interesting is the fact that Tacitus gives us the most precise information about Christ. He was important in establishing that Jesus existed and was crucified. I would be interested in any thoughts on this fact.

    #13201
    Dowrgi
    Participant

    Morning Angela,

    Indeed. Tacitus is also considered to have been quite methodical and he had access to all kinds of imperial archives and documents. Along with Pliny, Suetonius and Josephus, we have references to a historical figure of Christ and brief mentions of his followers. This does seem to weigh against the Christ-Myth theory. Nevertheless, these authors were writing after the times and no original manuscripts exist, we have copies of copies – usually penned by Christian monks, so this needs to be considered, too. In fact, Josephus’s writing on Christ and its authenticity has been called into question by some. Nevertheless, we have a small number of non-Christian authors writing not long after the events in question and this would suggest that there was indeed an historical Christ with followers – something which I think most academics and historians these days do accept. On the other hand, these are not eye-witness accounts, nor do they go into much detail, so, from an historian’s point of view, although they seem to confirm a historical figure of Christ, there’s nothing about resurrection, miracles or anything else – that is of course a matter of personal faith and, also, faith in the New Testament writers.

    Bennathow
    /|\

    #13202
    Angela Lawton
    Participant

    Thanks for your detailed reply Dowrgi. I personally believe in the divinity of Christ but this is born of a personal spiritual experience prior to having this experience I thought Christ was a myth! However I do not expect everyone to accept this and believe Christianity and Druidry can be a blended path.

    #13204
    david poole
    Participant

    Angela I think you may be right here, in my studies to provide a brief example I have come across references to people who are Anglican and Druid both; Philip Ross Nichols being one example. Ross Nichols was an Anglican minister while practicing Druidry and naturism in a different setting. Doctor Rowan Williams was Archibishop of Canterbury and a member of the Welsh Gorsedd. I am sure that there are many other examples.

    #13205
    Dowrgi
    Participant

    The Welsh Gorsedd, Cornish Gorsedh and Breton Gourzez are not neo-pagan/neo-druidic organisations, they are cultural and artistic organisations working with poetry, music and other forms of artistic and cultural expression. Having said that, they share, in a sense, a common thread of “ancestry” along with other organisations such as the (Ancient) Druid Order, OBOD and BDO – going back to the druid movements of the 18th and 19th centuries. The Welsh Gorsedd, Gorsedd Cymru (originally Gorsedd Beirdd Ynys Prydain) goes back to 1792 and was founded by Iolo Morganwg,

    Ross Nichols was connected with the Ancient Celtic Church in Brittany, he was ordained as an archdeacon in 1963. More recently, Anglican Rev. Shawn Sanford Beck in Saskatchewan, Canada – author of Christian Animism – is, I suppose, what one could call a Christian Druid. If you are interested, it may be worth looking him up.

    Thinking in more theological or spiritual terms, leaving aside what I call institutionalised theology, there’s nothing really in the message of Jesus Christ that is incompatible with modern druidry – at least on an ethical level. On a more spiritual/theological level, it has even been posited that the idea of a miraculous son, a sacrificed king, a triplicity of the godhead and resurrection/rebirth were ideas that very easily meshed or syncretised with pre-Christian Celtic ideas, although I would be cautious in that it is difficult to know really how much one set of ideas may have influenced the other seeing as we are drawing these notions from the texts written by Christians in a Christian world; how much our texts and folklore reflect pre-Christian belief and how much they are influenced by Christian belief is a vast subject indeed.

    The relationship between druidry and Christianity is long and complex, interwoven with the histories of the Celtic peoples and, at least in Britain and Ireland, I don’t think we (today) would or could have one without the other.

    Bennathow
    /|\

    #13213
    Angela Lawton
    Participant

    Thanks Dowrgi and David. The search for the Ancient Celtic church is what drew me to Druidry in the first place. I have heard of Philip Ross Nichols and I liked Doctor Rowan Williams. I will look up the Rev Shawn Sanford Beck Dowrgi. Christian animism is an interesting subject matter. You could say the Awen is the Holy Spirit and the Saints are the Ancestors in Christian terms. In our local Anglican church they have a huge wall hanging of Christ but his body is made up entirely of different coloured leaves meaning that he encompasses the whole of nature it reminds me of The Green Man.

    #13219
    Angela Lawton
    Participant

    After reading my last post again I think encompasses is the wrong word and should read intrinsic to nature perhaps.

    #13220
    Angela Lawton
    Participant

    Also the Catholic creed states that we believe in all things visible and invisible so that would include spirits, ghosts and Angels.

    #13224
    Dowrgi
    Participant

    Hi Angela,

    You may enjoy this book, which you can find at archive. org, Songs and Tales of Saint Columba and His Age, (1897?), Pub. Geddes, Edinburgh. It includes the writings of Fiona Macleod, nom de plume of William Sharp (1855-1905), and has a lot of interesting material in terms of Scottish and Gaelic lore. You may particular enjoy The Festival of the Birds (in this same book), in the section Marvels of Iona.

    Bennathow
    /|\

    #13229
    Angela Lawton
    Participant

    Hi Dowrgi thanks for the book recommendation I will definitely have a read.

    #13246
    Angela Lawton
    Participant

    Hi again Dowrgi. I have bought and read the book and loved The Festival of the Birds and in particular the role of the Robin red breast with Christ The robin is a significant bird to me and usually it symbolises messages from the spirit world. When I was in hospital three years ago I had a downstairs room with windows that opened at the bottom to form a narrow aperture, one day I was sitting on my hospital bed when a robin flew in through the window and perched on the desk in front of the bed and sat looking at me. He stayed there for about a minute then suddenly took off back through the window. I saw it as a sign from the spirit world that all would be well and I would be out of hospital soon which was the case.

    #13249
    Dowrgi
    Participant

    You’re very welcome, glad that you enjoyed it.

    Bennathow
    /|\

    #13327
    john welch
    Participant

    There was one connection where the Bible approved of a pagan system. The Persians had beliefs which resembled the Bible and possibly related to Druids in some ways.

    King James Bible
    Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut; Isaiah 45.1.
    Cyrus was perhaps Zoroastrian.

    #13328
    david poole
    Participant

    In Ireland there is crossover between Pagan practices and Christian practices. I think that they have a lot of customs there which are still very pagan. In terms of deities, it should be noted that the Celtic Bride later became the Christian Saint Brigid, both are still followed today. I am not sure how the other members of the Tuatha De are generally regarded. I do know that Roman Catholicism is a serious influence in Ireland. There are mixed views regarding this amongst the current pagan community, due to the fact that Catholicism came from outside of Ireland and was introduced to it. This perception is not strictly Christianity’s fault as Ireland has had a troubled history and a lot of mistreatment, especially from Britain, who attempted to destroy the Irish culture and language. The robin is a very significant bird, I will have to look it up but I think it is typically associated with midwinter and rebirth.

    #13365
    Dave TheDruid-3X3
    Participant

    According to the First 3rd of the Documovie ‘Zeitgeist’ that made the assertion that Jesus Christ had never actually existed and was a form of Deity made up to Worship the Power of the Sun comparing JC’s Characteristics with other Paganistic Pantheon’s Sun Gods pointing out how similar they are.

    So how did Tactus establish that Jesus Existed and was Crucified?

    3X3

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