- October 2, 2020 at 8:56 pm #12285
Neo-pagans are trying to find the shadow side of their personality because it is there that they will find the strength to be whole again. As druids we look for the witch, and dragon, and celtic hero that we repressed when society did not like our ideas. Society told us to get in line, and no more of that talk about faeries and magic trees. But we have found that in order to be whole and healthy and happy again, that we have to look into that shadow to find healing. During Samhain is a good time to rediscover the strengths of who we are, the artist, the writer, the magician, the warrior. That Halloween bag that we have been dragging around since childhood has all kinds of good things in it. The druid path allows us to find the hidden strengths we all have and the hidden skills that we put away long ago in order to fit in with the industrial machine.October 3, 2020 at 6:48 pm #12288
By acting out a druid archetype, Neo pagans can access the archetype chip that they are hard wired with. This allows Neo-pagans access to the subconscious, and visionary part of the druidic brain. this allows them access to engrams that can be consciously brought to the surface, and motivation can be understood. But more than that, the ancient relationship with nature, all encoded, can be decoded, and the true human is once again at one with nature, at one but still a separate individual with choice and preference. What started as play becomes lifestyle, and accepted social behavior. Even further seen in sky clad dancing around tribal fires, a natural energy moves easily through the body’s neurons as they are receptive to the cycles and tides of the earth and moon and stars. Now, with a reference group, druidic normalcy is achieved, with a decrease in anxiety, achieving a d factor of 10. Druidic subjects are now able to function with increased artistic energy and creative empathy from achieving a reference group.This leads to a cogent reference of greater happiness and peace. the druidic subject becomes more visionary and magical in thinking. Once past the entertainment value, druidic lifestyle leads to change in subjective outlook. A re-visioning of the dullness of life brought on my the overcrowding of urban planning, can be caused by druidic exploration of the subtle body, bringing a clear, to a state of confidence. Unfocused thought and wish fulfillment is now changed into clear thought and realistic goal setting.October 3, 2020 at 7:01 pm #12289
no where is society is a concept and truth more hidden than death. Society very cleverly hides the whole death process, which decreases the value of the life process. a return to more tribal groups and associations will lead to an increase in the value of life, and therefore, and increase in the experience of being alive. Death is kept in the shadows.October 4, 2020 at 12:50 am #12290
“People will do anything, no matter how absurd, in order to avoid facing their own souls. One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious.”
From “Psychology and Alchemy, Carl Jung.”October 4, 2020 at 1:16 am #12291
This music crept by me upon the waters.
—The TempestOctober 4, 2020 at 7:40 pm #12304
so what I think was done, starting in about 1975, a number of psychologist who were into the new age religions looked at Neo paganism and realized that they could take the Jung archetypes and lay them out in a grid over the ideas of Neo paganism and the archetypes fit perfectly. the problem with christianity was that many of the primary archetypes are missing. the archetypes of magician, warrior, and bard are missing from christianity. So druidry, which is Neo paganism, gives those archetypes back to the follower of the druid path. When the society has those archetypes it functions better. The way society had been fulfilling the archetypes was through film, and literature. With druidry, the archetypes can be reintegrated back into the culture. but still, Neo paganism has other functions, and one is the initiation into manhood or womanhood that society lacks. I think this integration of archetypes with Neo paganism is why so many psychologist are druids. And many find their warrior archetype in the Morrigan archetype. what we think is so old as a religion may be a Jugian region in the form of Neo-paganism. for certain, we are hard wired to accept and want the archetypes of magican, bard, and warrior. And druidry may be overlooking its warrior role, for the druids were often warriors and bards and magic men. So the result of being a druid is that we become more whole, and are able to get in touch with the subconscious forces within us, and this makes us stronger. Druidry, also helps us to connect up with nature, something that the force of christianity does not have in it gene pool. and Neo paganism also has the concepts of king, and queen, and lover. and druidry has the archetype of bard, so creative people love the druidic path. one thing for sure, is that the Neo-pagan religions are not boring, and stuffy, and they are not practiced in a smelly old, ghost infested, church. We as druids practice in groves of trees where the awen is flowing strong. a society that does not honor and lift up poetry and art is a dying culture. oh one more thing, the idea of all is one is fine, but the concept of one god who punishes anyone who does not worship the one god is a dangerous and separating concept. If you think about it, it is a crazy idea and sounds like it came for a bad b movie. We are now entering the time of the Neo pagan, the water sign.October 5, 2020 at 5:52 am #12306
Isn’t a case that Jungian archetypes were drawn from pre-existing mythologies, beliefs and ideas anyway? I think, if you’re working with Jungian ideas, that you get these in Judaeo-Christian traditions too. In Jungian terms, Moses might be described as the “wizard” archetype, indeed many of the early modern druids sought to see parallels between the Old Testament patriarchs with druids. King David could be seen as a warrior and a poet, or bard, could he not? Not to mention other warriors such as Joshua and Samson. The whole point of Jungian archetypes is that they’re universal and manifest themselves in all different cultures and times because they are a reflex of the basic and universal human condition with its hopes, fears and needs.
/|\October 5, 2020 at 10:25 am #12307david pooleParticipant
Is Moses the Wizard or is he the High Priest? These are two different archetypes. They are very compatible of course, except that one serves the gods and the other uses magic to make things happen, so their roles are not exactly the same. I think that warriors and bards go very well together, I am not sure why except that in the Irish lore this happens almost automatically.October 5, 2020 at 5:59 pm #12308
the concept I am trying to work on is that the archetypes can be a useful tool in understanding who we are as individuals and as folks. Dowgri, the insight Moses being a wizard is very good, and I can see the point that you are making, and it makes a lot of sense. And the poet Taliesin was found floating as a baby in the water just like Moses. I just feel that Jesus is a Jesus archetype in his own right, just like a policeman falls into a a police officer archetype. The Jesus archetype seems to be the lover archetype. And people can assume these roles until it gets very boring, like the drug addict rock star archetype, or the frat boy archetype. But these things really get useful when you are trying to explore parts of the human psyche. Because I feel if a person puts on the wizard archetype role, then they see the world in a new way, that can improve their life. And I think we all try on these different roles at different times in our lives.And David, thinking a little about it, even the gods are a type of archetype, like god the good father. Still the gods and goddesses can open doors to different types of energies. And the archetypes seem to help us open doors to our subconscious, or shadow side, that we are only dimly aware of. all of these different roles and archetypes can be used to make us whole, or to help us understand why the world is so messed up. the goal seems to be able to help a person understand their drives and motivations and in that, make better choices and decisions. and I have to think that the concept of a person having a soul and a subtle astral body, and the chakras as centers of intelligence are all important too. And these are the kinds of things a priest archetype would think about. Where a druid archetype would study nature, and trees, and the fluid energy that runs throughout the universe, and the magic of words.further, direct experience with a god or goddess or with the faery world is different than just reading about it in a book. If I can find a part of me that is hiding in the subconscious, then I can bring it out into the light and deal with it, and tell it that I don’t agree with that idea or I do agree with that idea. I stand a better chance of being happy and of survival if I can see things as they really are. Still, I like exploring the different forest paths and winding trails of the soul. Dowgri, I agree that these archetypes can be applied to all religions and ways of being, I just feel that being aware of these archetypes helps me to understand the different roles that druids and witches play, and what druidry can teach us about ourselves and how we are all interconnected with nature. life is not easy, and can be heartbreaking, and the battle to find answers that bring peace and harmony is hard fought. Also, the more I explore the psyche and spirituality the more I feel like I become lost, at least for a while, until things seem to make sense again. David, I have read where the druids would also assume the role of warriors when the tribe was under attack and every hand was needed on deck. and I did hear a great description of a hero, a hero is someone who brings about cultural change in a society or tribe.October 5, 2020 at 7:51 pm #12309
Is Moses the Wizard or is he the High Priest? These are two different archetypes. They are very compatible of course, except that one serves the gods and the other uses magic to make things happen, so their roles are not exactly the same.
This is quite complicated, especially in terms of Ancient Egypt because the priests of Ancient Egypt worked with magic, it’s just that this magic was part and parcel of their religion – the religion of a culture that was infused with ideas of magic anyway; for instance, the whole Book of the Dead is full of spells to help the soul on its journey after death and so on, so we could call it “magical”, but to an Ancient Egyptian it would have been considered part of his or her religion. Getting back to Moses, we have a man who was “… learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds,” (Acts 7:22). Moses and Aaron battle the two wise men and sorcerers sent by Pharaoh to challenge them, and outdo their “magical” feats or enchantments, the feats, however, being rather similar, not to mention the fact that the two Egyptians are described quite unequivocally as being enchanters or sorcerers.
Ultimately, I suppose it also depends on our definition of “magic” – if we define magic as rituals, powers and actions which somehow affect the natural world through the intervention or manipulation of supernatural powers and beings, then one person’s priest/priestess could easily be another’s magician, wizard or witch. Now, from a Judaeo-Christian point of view, Moses and Aaron didn’t have any powers themselves, this was the power that came from God. Nevertheless, surely the Egyptian sorcerers didn’t think they had any powers themselves, as in being supernatural, either, but rather that these powers derived from whatever Egyptian deities they were calling upon and thus we come full circle again.
I think that warriors and bards go very well together, I am not sure why except that in the Irish lore this happens almost automatically.
That’s an interesting observation. Certainly, the High Medieval knight during the Age of Chivalry and the later, so-called Renaissance Man, would have been expected to excel not only in their martial skills, but also in their musical, poetic and literary abilities. Is this, maybe, something that has been projected on to the mythologies from a later period when they were being written down by the scribes? I’m not saying it has, but I think it’s something to consider.
Having said all this, from much more ancient lore, we have the Biblical image of King David playing his lyre and singing and many Psalms are attributed to him, not to mention Achilles playing his lyre in his tent during the period in which he goes on strike from the Trojan War, so to speak. Moving to our own shores, both the figures of Taliesin and Myrddin Wyllt are bards who are somehow involved in or around battles too. Finally, let’s not forget the great Irish High King, Brian Boru, to whom the emblematic harp of Ireland is attributed. Let’s face it, in a warrior culture, a good sing-song after a battle (a bit like a modern post-rugby match celebration) is not too farfetched to imagine either. Ancient battles were pretty ghastly affairs at best and I’d bet most of the warriors were pretty relieved to have survived in one bit, add a bit of mead, wine or ale and without any other available entertainments, it pretty much sets the scene.
/|\October 7, 2020 at 9:25 pm #12322
although the archetypes can be laid over as a grid on any religion, I mean, I really can’t identify with some old camel humper with a staff that changes into monster snake. I don’t get how people got so into identifying with desert dwelling action figures. and the whole judeo christian culture is based on a lot of people who needed laws for nomads in the vast wastelands of sand. nothing about that culture applies to us, and I think that the romans just picked the christian religion to spread because it pacified people, to pay their taxes and not fight back against the roman military machine. Anyway, the story goes all the way to the Puritans taking religion to America where in seems to grow wild and take over everything. In contrast, in druidry, there are archetypes that I can identify with and role models like king Arthur and Merlyn and Taliesin.October 8, 2020 at 8:06 am #12328
I don’t think it’s helpful to use trivialising, coarse and potentially offensive language to describe important cultural and historical figures. I’d advise a little more caution with one’s choice of words.
Leaving that aside, the Judaeo-Christian traditions ultimately have their roots in the Fertile Crescent and, perhaps to a lesser extent, the Nile Valley – neither of which are “wastelands of sand”. The Fertile Crescent, Mesopotamia, is the land that birthed the civilisation of Sumer and the subsequent civilisations of Akkadia and Babylon as well as the great trading nation of the Phoenicians. This fertile land seems to be where the wheel was invented, cereal agriculture, the writing system that is the origin of the one you and I still use today, astronomy, some of the first and (still) oldest cities and numerous other things. Certainly, in terms of so-called “Western Civilisation”, the importance of Mesopotamia and Egypt cannot be underestimated.
In terms of the Romans, the Romans didn’t need Christianity to “pacify” anything and, in historical terms, the Christian Roman Empire marked the end of Roman imperial power – the nearly two hundred years of the so-called Pax Romana was under non-Christian emperors in the two centuries, more or less, after Augustus. So, if Christianising Rome had indeed been meant to pacify people, it obviously didn’t work too well in real historical terms. The Christianity of the Romans was also heavily influenced by non-Judaeo-Christian philosophies, especially Neoplatonism, so, just for example, the rigid monotheism in Christianity also had non-Judaeo-Christian precursors and would have been familiar to the learned people, i.e. the people with some degree of power, of the Graeco-Roman world. Finally, I don’t think 17th century Puritans had much connection with 5th-6th century Roman (Catholic) Christians to be honest – completely different worlds and periods.
/|\October 8, 2020 at 8:17 pm #12333
In contrast, Dowrgi, through a dark glass you can see where the shadow of christianity has brought us to, global warming, industrialization, fracking which is the total destruction of the life giving water, and a polluted planet that is dying, and this is because of christian led culture. In America, the kingdom on the hill, the new Jerusalem, people are put to death by a faceless state, and for profit prisons treat prisoners as product, and not as people. the industrial machine keeps making the old new, and the new familiar, an endless loop of matrix like behavior. The christian biblical archetype, has allowed kings and queens to kill to their cups are full of blood, to the point that they cannot close their eyes without seeing the faces of their countless victims, the innocent children and women who are killed by western drones while the children and women are attending a wedding at the oasis. The quiet coat and tie marble floor of the church is a killing floor for creativity an a relationship with the natural environment. While, flotillas of black glassed cars pound rap music hatred, creating a vortex of evil spirits, crackhead children holding their lost childhood like a stolen gun. There was nothing that the camel riders, riding their humps, of the Middle East gave us that we did not have in a better form, as the Egyptians tried to hold onto life in their mummified state, but life will not allow it, and the
Celtic soul needs to be free. and old men justify their wealth and doctorate degree homes while citing philosophy that smells of onions peeled away in layers upon layers of emptiness and ghost alarm farts. the druids know the flowing energy of the earth and the stories of the faery kingdoms, the cauldron of Cerridwen, and the love archetype of Angus Og, who protects the love and those who love. all things affect and effect other things, and the christianity of the sands of shadows led to cultures that are destroying the earth. Thomas Jefferson, made sure the constitution of the USA allowed for freedom of religion because he was well aware of the tyranny of christian religion, and he was also aware of the greeks, who did not have christian gods. So, no, I don’t respect parts of religions or people that put forth evil dogma, soul killing dogma. Toleration is not the same as respect. christianity is an old shadow in the sand.October 9, 2020 at 12:37 pm #12335
You see, the trouble with all of this is that you’d have to be able to demonstrate unequivocally that all of this was because of Christianity. If Christians, for example, do bad things, then it could quite as easily be argued that it was in spite of Christ’s teachings rather than because of them. Surely most Christians would agree that the love of money is the root of all evil and that the worship of “Mammon” is fundamentally contrary to Christian teachings, so much so that Christ has even been described as the first “communist” of a sort. Therefore, as often is the case, the issues are really about people and their faults. Moreover, and in the same vein, you could say that the pre-Christian Roman and Celtic “archetypes” allowed human sacrifice, slavery and wholesale destruction of peoples and cultures. Was it really because of their beliefs, though? What did the monks of Lindisfarne ever do to the Norsemen who invaded and butchered them? What had the Greeks ever done to merit an attack on one of their holiest sites, Delphi, by the Gauls?
There was nothing that … the Middle East gave us that we did not have in a better form, as the Egyptians tried to hold onto life in their mummified state, but life will not allow it, and the
Except for the things that they invented, which de facto, “we” didn’t have because they invented them. The Egyptians didn’t try to hold on to life in their mummified state at all, I’m afraid that’s a complete misunderstanding and misrepresentation of complex Ancient Egyptian belief.
Thomas Jefferson had radical views on religion that were drawn from Enlightenment Philosophy, however, he also said that Christ’s teachings were “the most sublime and benevolent code of morals which has ever been offered to man” (Jefferson Bible).October 9, 2020 at 8:37 pm #12336
Hi Dowgri, as always a well thought out answer. Here in the USA, the christians evangelicals have become very political and have inserted themselves into politics. There is a prayer week in DC, that is run by the evangelicals and the politicians who need the evangelical vote are influenced by the evangelical doctrine. The evangelicals think the USA is a christian country, and was founded as a christian nation. However, I feel it was more like a lot of wealthy landowners in America that owed a lot of money to the Bank of England and did not want to pay the money back, so the easiest way to get out of the loans was to declare independence. I also feel that the Jugian shadow concept can be applied to a great deal of christian indoctrination that many of us carry around, and I feel like it does affect our subconscious. further, there are witches and druids that walk the double path and do practice blasting, or black magic, and do place curses on people, and this is why many people are afraid of witches and druids. As I understand it there has always been a great deal of craft people and conjurers in Cornwall and the West Country, and people would go to these people to have curses lifted or cast. There is also the Black Toad, and dancing around a churchyard on halloween, can bring you in contact with the power of the Black Toad, who seems to be an evil spirit, and appears as large as a person. There is also the Bucca Dhu. Plus there are toad doctors and cunning men. So a lot of sickness and misfortune was blamed on curses. and this may be why some people are terrified of Neo-pagans. there is a place in Cornwall called the Logging Stones that are associated with witches. I feel if one wanted to find real witches, then Cornwall and the West Country would be the place that some of them are. And there is a lot of talk of the witches making packs with the devil, or the Bucca Dhu. Some places in the world are more magical than others, and Cornwall is a power spot. Do you have black toads around where you live, and what do you think about the magical power of black toads. Best Star Tree
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.