British Druid Order

[Greywolf]

Ayana Owl, the first BDO camp was Autumn Equinox, 1995. 350 people and a good time had by all .
Seannachaidh, there's a long and (ig)noble tradition of splits in Druid groups. Of the revival groups, the first to kick off was the Ancient Order of Druids in 1781 and they had their first major split about a decade later. There are now a couple of dozen offshoots in various parts of the world. The Ancient Druid Order (no relation) formed in 1909 (or thereabouts) and their major split came in 1964 when two-thirds of the membership left to form the Order of Bards, Ovates and Druids. So splitting's been around almost as long as Druid revivals have It's in the nature of such splits that they leave a legacy of bitterness and ill-feeling, or of sadness and disappointment, or both.
Of course, the same is true of virtually all spiritual groups. Just look at the centuries-old hostility between Catholics and Protestants, while Christianity and Islam are both splinter groups from Judaism. Buddhism has similarly divided into dozens of rival schools. It's human nature.
"Becoming inflated?" Hmm, we'd better make room for that in the ovate course .
Ysgawen, thanks for the addition to the pronunciation guide. Quite right
Peace,
Greywolf /|\

[Seannachaidh]

It's in the nature of such splits that they leave a legacy of bitterness and ill-feeling, or of sadness and disappointment, or both.

Yeah, that's my point. Why does it have to be like that? Perhaps if people were taught about it while learning their path they'd view it in more positive terms, and might have better ethics about their actions if they had a proceedure. It is the year we save the world, after all.

[Adam]

It's a variation of the Forming, Storming, Norming and Performing dynamic. On the whole, if a group is to exist beyond the purpose of a specific time limited task rather than dissolve of completion of a task (a normal dynamic in most situations below the communal), that group has to have an existence and structure independent of any of its members. Unfortunately, this is in direct conflict with most people's assessment of their own self importance (me, I'm not a good team player ) and can generally only be established and maintained through fairly draconian measures (witness the Churches over history, or political organisations) and a willingness to rapidly exclude alternative viewpoints. "Alternative" structures don't last because permanence of the structure itself is not held in high regard as a value so the necessary measures are not put in place, and generally inclusion is valued more than exclusion (until things get a bit tasty). The factioning is normal... far more normal among territorial hairless apes than co-operation and love, even those of us who may recognise an different way of engaging. In a way, I don't see the dissolution and reformation of groups with an alternative ethos as a failure on the part of those groups but as an alternative approach to group process itself, one that doesn't depend on the conservative and stultifying mechanisms of tradition establishment structures.

[Elen]

Starhawk wrote a book about group politics, and particularly pagan group politics. It makes interesting reading , though she was writing from more of an activist and American viewpoint.

We like to think of our groups as being democratic, and sometimes that works for a very long time, but often there is a power balance, albeit it subtle. You get it in other types of groups and organisations too. As Greywolf says, it's human nature. People can come to a parting of the ways when their belief or method diverges too much from that of the rest of the group, or when they want more clout within the group. Often that parting of the ways is amicable and the splinter section breaks away to do their own thing alone or under the patronage of the original group, but sometimes the sundering happens only after a power struggle and a lot of increasing hostility, with others in the group taking sides.

The other thing that sometimes happens is that a person or people object to the way things are run but won't share responsibility: kind of I know what i don't want but I don't know what i do want. We had a very large and active group here in Oxford with pagans from diverse paths, such as Golden Dawn, Wiccan, Druidic and general pagans coming together to do open rituals for the eightfold year. One person in particular repeatedly complained that she didn't like the way the rituals were structured (though the way we did things was open to input from any member of the group). In the end the bloke who had founded the group turned round and told her she was now responsible for planning the rough outline of the rituals, organising where and when they happened etc. The rituals petered out within months.

[Seannachaidh]

Thanks for the replies. Perhaps being a traveller I've learned to let go too easily, in a way, and am an example of the what the opposite end of the scale is like. Perhaps that's why the subject interests me.

An understanding of the mechanics of a thing leads to less knee jerk responses, I've found. You always manage to get to the point in an understandable way, Adam. If there are books (I'll see if I can get that one, Elen) and terminology already in place for the understanding of suchlike, the only thing missing would be an ethical code to go alongside it. Both would contribute towards Right Action in such cases.

A methodology in place beforehand, that suggested appropriate responses to splits ie: being supportive and joyful, or at least accepting with a dignified sadness, would mean people would be less likely to go off the rails through guilt, fustration, etc... I would have thought. Well, that's my opinion, anyhow.

I've heard it said that Eastern traditions say of Westerners that they are not taught how to let go, and it takes up much of our spiritual and emotional resources, which would be better employed elsewhere.

Either way, with the new media course, this is the year you changed the druid world, if nothing else. Lets hope the ripples spread beyond.

THREE REQUIREMENTS OF COMPLAINT
A problem that needs a solution
Alternative suggestions for a solution
A willingness to contribute to the solution

[Elen]

Thanks for the replies. Perhaps being a traveller I've learned to let go too easily, in a way, and am an example of the what the opposite end of the scale is like. Perhaps that's why the subject interests me.

An understanding of the mechanics of a thing leads to less knee jerk responses, I've found. You always manage to get to the point in an understandable way, Adam. If there are books (I'll see if I can get that one, Elen) and terminology already in place for the understanding of suchlike, the only thing missing would be an ethical code to go alongside it. Both would contribute towards Right Action in such cases.

A methodology in place beforehand, that suggested appropriate responses to splits ie: being supportive and joyful, or at least accepting with a dignified sadness, would mean people would be less likely to go off the rails through guilt, fustration, etc... I would have thought. Well, that's my opinion, anyhow.

I've heard it said that Eastern traditions say of Westerners that they are not taught how to let go, and it takes up much of our spiritual and emotional resources, which would be better employed elsewhere.

Either way, with the new media course, this is the year you changed the druid world, if nothing else. Lets hope the ripples spread beyond.

THREE REQUIREMENTS OF COMPLAINT
A problem that needs a solution
Alternative suggestions for a solution
A willingness to contribute to the solution

I think the Starhawk book is called Truth or Dare. If you read it, you have to see past her militantly feminist viewpoint. She makes some pertinent points.

[Adam]

The only Starhawk I have read have been two fiction books, one of which, The Fifth Sacred Thing, is up in my top three books of all time. I must read some more of her thinking...

[Elen]

The only Starhawk I have read have been two fiction books, one of which, The Fifth Sacred Thing, is up in my top three books of all time. I must read some more of her thinking...

I loved The spiral Dance

[Greywolf]

Thoughtful and interesting responses, for which I thank you all. For the history of Druidic splits over the last couple of centuries, the best resource is Ronald Hutton's 'Blood & Mistletoe' (2009), which is about as objective and fair to all concerned as it's possible to get. In that book, however, Ronald doesn't go much beyond 1964 and the founding of OBOD (splitting from ADO ). His earlier book, 'The Druids,' (2008) has more to say on recent events, though very sensibly steering clear of much of the internal politicking that's gone on over the last 20 years or so.
My personal approach is mitigated by the knowledge of past splits. I now feel that having groups split is a sign that they've 'made it,' i.e. that they've become sufficiently recognised to be deemed worth splitting from However, some people's attitudes taken in and around splits continue to baffle me. In the Avebury Gorsedd, for example, there were people who consistently and bitterly complained about every aspect of the ceremonies; those who were conducting them; how they were conducted; where they were held; who came to them, and so on and on. What baffled me was, if they disliked the ceremonies so much, why on earth did they keep coming to them every six weeks for years? Weird, huh?
I am encouraged by the fact that there are Druidries that are willing and able to cooperate happily for the mutual benefit of all. I would cite ourselves and OBOD as a good example.
In the end, most of the problems within Druidry come down to clashes between individual dominant personalities or, if you prefer, egos. Mostly male egos. At the heart of most of the troubles are less than a handful of persons suffering from mental instability to varying degrees. However much one may sympathise with their medical conditions, they do render them impervious to rational argument, to agreements, plans of action or methodologies.
Mind you, the personality thing can work both ways. Part of the reason BDO and OBOD play so well together is that Philip Carr-Gomm and I have been friends for 20 years. I'm a big fan of friendship. I think it's one of the most valuable qualities in the whole of human existence.
Anyway, enough rambling. Time to scrub some spuds.
Peace (and I mean that most sincerely),
Greywolf /|\

[Seannachaidh]

What is the Gorseddau subforum FOR though?